Track Changes Episode 3: Selling Your Book (Part 1)
LISTEN TO THE EPISODE
Literary agents Holly Root ( literary agent and founder of Root Literary who represents clients such as Victoria Schwab (hear her First Draft interview here), Jasmine Guillory (listen to her First Draft interview here), and Christina Lauren) and Seth Fishman (he’s an author and literary agent with The Gernert Company and manager of their West Coast office. He reps clients such as John Joseph Adams, Ali Almossawi, and Kate Beaton) return to lead us through how an agent prepares a manuscript for submission, how they choose which editors to approach with a manuscript, and how they negotiate common types of book sales. We get into what a writer can expect during this notoriously nerve-wracking process.
We reconnect with Jennifer de Leon, debut author of young adult novel Don’t Ask Me Where I’m From, out on August 4. (Hear her First Draft interview here.)
CATCH UP ON THE SERIES SO FAR:
Episode 2: Agents: Who Are They, What Do They Do, And How Do You Get One?
Sarah Enni: This episode of Track Changes is brought to you by our presenting sponsor The Slow Novel Lab a six-week, online writing and creativity course created and taught by bestselling and Prince Award winning novelist, Nina LaCour. The next six-week session of the Slow Novel Lab begins on June 7th and for this special summer session, Nina is donating 50% of profits to Direct Relief a humanitarian aid organization providing resources and assistance to underserved communities during this global health crisis.
Nina has been teaching writing for years, and she personally developed The Slow Novel Lab using methods that she found useful for deepening creativity and focusing on foundational elements of novel writing. Find out more and enroll in the summer course of The Slow Novel Lab @NinaLaCour.com.
Sarah Enni: Back in 2015, years before Jennifer de Leon wrote and sold her debut young adult novel, Don’t Ask Me Where I’m From (out on August 4. Hear her First Draft interview here), Jen finished writing an entirely different book, an adult book that got her her first agent. It was also the first book she submitted to editors.
Jennifer de Leon: In January, late January, she went out with the book and the manuscript and we had a great list, probably fifteen editors.
Sarah Enni: It was the moment every author dreams of: The start of the profitable part of their career.
But then…
Jennifer de Leon: Boom, nothing. People were complimentary, but we got a lot of comments that were like, “I so wanted to make this work, but I just don't see how to break out this novel.” Or, “Jennifer is a writer to watch. I'll be cheering from the sidelines.” “I just couldn't connect with the characters, but I'm sure we'll hear from her in the future.”
Sarah Enni: Like so, so, so, so many other writers, Jen saw the momentum for her project just… kind of… die out.
Jennifer de Leon: I spent hours teasing apart every last sentence and every last word. Like, “What does that mean?” And it’s just torture. It’s like actual torture. And then, slowly, the emails stopped, which is kind of worse in some way because you’re not getting any feedback. And then the door kind of slowly just clicked shut
Sarah Enni: Jen experienced something all too common: the hopes for a manuscript dying, not with a bang, but with a whimper. It is hard to write a book, it’s harder to find an agent, and harder still to find that book a home at a publishing house.
Luckily, Jen was doing what all the experts advise: writing the next book.
I’m Sarah Enni, author of TELL ME EVERYTHING and creator and host of First Draft and this is Track Changes...a special First Draft spin-off series covering everything you don’t know you don’t know about publishing.
This week: Selling your book. So we’re actually gonna be covering this topic over the next two episodes because it’s an emotional and scary part of the publishing journey...and there are a lot of players involved.
First, we’re going to return to literary agents Seth Fishman of The Gernert Company, and Holly Root of Root Literary. In the last episode of Track Changes, they laid out the whys and hows, and dos and don’ts, of getting an agent.
Now, we’re at the next phase. You’ve written a book and gotten an agent. You’re now at the first step where things are really, truly out of your hands. This is when your agent takes your precious, beautiful book and tries to see if anyone out there wants to buy it.
This process is known as submission. And, as Jen said, It. Is. Torture.
Let’s go through the steps that are happening behind the scenes, out of view of the author. The first thing an agent does when a book is ready to go on submission, is create a list of editors to send it to. That’s called the Submission List, or Sub List.
Seth Fishman: That's a lot where the agency comes into play. I love working on sub lists with my colleagues, calling them up and telling them my list and who might be right for it because it's a collective wisdom. Who's the person that's looking for the thing, and what's that thing? Do you have it?
Sarah Enni: It’s okay to ask your agent to see the submission list. You can even start to follow those editors on Twitter. But it is not okay to try to contact those editors, in any way shape or form.
Once your agent has put together a sub list…
Holly Root: We also will generate a cover letter that goes along with the manuscript.
Sarah Enni: A cover letter is basically a query letter. Hey, look at that! Agents feel our pain. Once the cover letter is ready, the rubber really hits the road. But like, what does that mean?
Holly Root: So when it comes to actually putting the submission out there, sometimes we call, sometimes we just email. I don't usually attach the manuscript until somebody specifically said like, “Yes, I want this.” And how, and in which medium we reach out, really varies depending on what category it's in, which editor we're talking about. Some editors never answer their phone. So we will really vary that a lot over the course of the submission, or submission to submission.
Seth Fishman: I think that in the kids space it is significantly more acceptable to email. But I like calls almost exclusively because I really believe that my enthusiasm shows on a phone call.
Sarah Enni: Okay, but what does that mean for me, the impatient author sitting on the outside of this communication chain?
Seth Fishman: Once it's out in the world, I let my author know it's out in the world. And then I say, “Let's assume you're not gonna hear anything for two weeks, and then we'll be in touch.” Because if the book is gonna sell in a big way, usually within two weeks we're already moving heavy in that category. And if we haven't heard in two weeks, then it doesn't mean it's not gonna sell, but an author is gonna start figuring out that something's going on and you want to talk to them and check in and make sure it's clear. It doesn't mean I'm not gonna talk to you in those two weeks. I just want my authors to not be obsessively waiting for something from me the next day.
Sarah Enni: So… how long is this gonna take?
Holly Root: In the normal course of life and selling books, you will send a thing out. You will wait to hear back from people for an indeterminate amount of time, depending on what category you're in, that can really vary. Adult, general adult editors, tend to be faster.
Seth Fishman: Especially in the nonfiction space. It’s like immediate.
Holly Root: Nonfiction, you'll hear back in 48 hours.
Seth Fishman: Cause it's a fifty page proposal.
Holly Root: And honestly so much of that decision making is driven by market.
Seth Fishman: But you know what's funny? Slow people are picture book editors. And they have five hundred words to read. And I love you guys, I love you all.
Holly Root: [Laughs] Children's overall-- and I feel for them, because I feel like there are way more agents than there used to be and they all do children's.
Seth Fishman: Right.
Holly Root: So I think that it probably is related somewhat to drinking from a fire hose. But yes, children's is always slower. SFF (Science Fiction Fantasy) I find is very sort of like…
Seth Fishman: They're very slow.
Holly Root: Jaggedy, like it's either real fast or real slow.
Seth Fishman: Okay, fair. But, real slow.
Holly Root: Real slow, like stretching the space time continuum.
Seth Fishman: Like I don't understand.
Sarah Enni: Sadly, the fastest responses? Those are gonna be, “No.” [Sighs] Rejection comes for us all.
Seth Fishman: One of the greatest things about publishing, and this is for agent rejections and editor rejections, is that rejections are so much a way of life. To the point where there are good and bad rejections and people put them up on their walls and this and that.
Sarah Enni: But, it only takes one yes.
Seth Fishman: Every book I've sold for seven figures, every book I’ve sold for seven figures, I have had ten people pass on it, if not fifteen, and we're talking about seven figures. I mean, people pass. It’s part of the game.
Sarah Enni: I recommend telling your agent how, or if, you want to be informed of who has rejected your book. I asked my agent to pass along constructive rejections, where the editor said nice things about the book, but had ultimately decided it wasn’t for them. There’s some real gems in there.
And my agent sent information in batches. So whenever she had something good or constructive to pass along, she also snuck in there that so-and-so had passed as well. If you only want good news, that’s completely fine, but be sure to let your agent know.
But let’s say there’s an editor who’s interested! Holy “Beep”! This is it, right? Is this it?
Turns out… not quite.
That’s after the break.
This episode of Track Changes is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, The Slow Novel Lab. A six-week, online writing and creativity course created and taught by bestselling and Prince Award winning novelist, Nina LaCour. The next six-week session of The Slow Novel Lab begins on June 7th and for this special summer session, Nina is donating 50% of profits to Direct Relief a humanitarian aid organization that Nina chose specifically because of its commitment to helping underserved communities with populations especially at risk.
You can join The Slow Novel Lab if you have an entire first draft of a novel, or only a few thousand words, or even just the faintest hint of a story. The course is designed to be tailored for exactly where you are at. Over the course of six weeks, Nina will guide you through writing explorations, craft lessons, video lectures, and weekly live Q&A calls with Nina herself.
A private, moderated forum will also connect you to your fellow students. And that just goes such a long way toward building community, and finding great critique partners, and people who you can connect with wherever you are in your process. And at the end of the course, the lessons and video lectures remain yours to keep, which is great cause then you can go back and reference those whenever you feel like you need to fill your well again.
I know Nina was planning on starting The Slow Novel Lab again in the fall, but she bumped up the start date to June 7th for this special summer session, to help people who are really in need of a creative boost right now and to help Direct Relief.
You can find out a lot more information and sign up for the summer session of The Slow Novel Lab @NinaLaCour.com.
Sarah Enni: If an editor is interested in your book, that’s really just the beginning.
Seth Fishman: We send it to an editor, but we're selling it to a publisher. That's why when the editor leaves, the book doesn't go with the editor 99% of the time. So it takes more than just the editor to sign off on the book. When you send something to someone, you're actually sending it to their sales director, and their editorial director, and someone else, and someone else. There's a lot of people that have to be on board.
Sarah Enni: When an editor has to make the case to buy the book to all the other people they work with -- that’s a process known as acquisitions. We’re gonna get into that in way more detail in the next episode, so stay tuned.
Holly Root: When people are reading things and stuff is taking time and it can be anywhere from, you know, two to four weeks, or two to four months, or in some science fiction fantasy cases years -- we try not to do that -- but they'll eventually, a consensus will emerge. Some people will say, “No.” Some people will say, “No, but I tried with my team, and my team said no.” And then eventually you'll get people saying, “I'm working on an offer for this.”
Sarah Enni: So if they say they’re working on an offer, that means the editor has taken your book to acquisitions, and everyone else at the publisher loves your book, too. The editor is now putting together the offer to buy your book! OMG! Now what?!
Holly Root: I also think it's such an interesting time to get really granular about what your author's goals and needs and expectations are. Because sometimes that overturns really interesting things that I wouldn't necessarily have thought to negotiate for. But when I hear that that's a priority, it gives me a whole new arsenal of things. And then you can do things like get someone to just straight up improve an offer in a vacuum because it's speaking to the real needs of the author.
Sarah Enni: So, as an author, one thing you can be doing is getting real with yourself about what you want.
Holly Root: It's okay if you have an amount of money that feels like it would be transformative. I've had people say, “Well, my student loans are this.” And I'm like, “Fantastic, sounds good.” You know, “Challenge accepted.” It can be things like that. It can be things like, “You know, I really want a particular kind of editorial relationship.” And knowing that up front, helps me prioritize a different kind of editor. But also it may mean that the money looks different depending on what house that person is at.
Sarah Enni: There are dozens of factors that determine how much money you could expect to sell your book for: the category and genre that you’re writing in, whether or not you have a pre-existing platform, and so much more. You can, and should, have a very frank conversation with your agent so that you have reasonable and informed expectations.
And then of course, there’s the thing on every author's mind…
Holly Root: The things about marketing, those are the things that authors always are like, “That’s what I care about.” And it’s so hard, because you cannot guarantee them. It is simply too far out.
Sarah Enni: Okay, back to selling the book.
There’s a variety of ways a book can be sold. If an editor and their publishing house think you have the potential to be the next huge mega-hit sensation, they could try to buy the book before anyone else can bid on it. That’s called a pre-emptive sale, or a pre-empt.
Seth Fishman: A publisher tries to put an offer on the table that's big enough to take it off the table.
Holly Root: Correct.
Seth Fishman: And oftentimes there's a timeline attached to it.
Holly Root: Correct.
Seth Fishman: Like 24 hours or less.
Holly Root: End of day today we have to hear back.
Sarah Enni: Um, that sounds exciting!! Let’s do it! Right? Actually, Seth and Holly say, hold up. If an editor is looking to buy the book in a pre-empt, that probably means other people are gonna be into it, too.
Seth Fishman: If you're gonna take a preempt, it's got to be one of the top three, maybe four places if you're doing a larger submission. And that editor has to be the right person, but when you take a preempt you are taking away choice. You're taking away ten calls, five calls, who knows how many calls, but a number of calls with editors where the author has the opportunity to connect and jive on editorial, and really figure out what's going on there. So it's a big deal to take a preempt.
Sarah Enni: If multiple parties are interested in making an offer, your agent will set up what’s called an Auction.
Holly Root: And at that point, this is where it really does become strategy and style. How different agents will play that out really differently.
Sarah Enni: There’s not really a consensus on how, exactly, auctions are done.
Seth Fishman: The normal auction is round robin, where basically everyone has to put in their first offer by a certain time. And then you call up the lowest one and you tell them what the highest is, and they have a certain amount of time to match or beat the highest, and you keep going as they drop out.
Holly Root: I love Round Robin because it allows you to be the most transparent. And I think editors should love it too. It takes a ton of time. It's a huge day eater, but it's the clearest cut. But I ran one recently and several of the editors were like, “Huh?” Like, they'd never done one.
Sarah Enni: Holly cautions us all to pump the breaks.
Holly Root: It's fun to talk about the auctions and the preempts because they're wacky and they eat your entire life and the lives of everyone involved in them and they generate a lot of industry gossip.
Sarah Enni: But for the vast majority of books? Pre-empts and auctions are not a factor.
Holly Root: It is more common, more books are sold like I sent it out, I got one offer, we got the offer better. We took it. The end. Than are sold at auction for seven figures.
Seth Fishman: Yes absolutely. And remember it takes one, right? It just takes one.
Sarah Enni: Basically, there is no one standard way to sell a book. But your agent should be keeping you in the loop at all times, answering your questions, providing context, and helping you establish reasonable expectations. Be clear with them, but also be willing to change your mind based on their advice and counsel.
Holly Root: When I'm in my positive headspace, I like to think about the framing of the answer to so many of the questions being like, “Nobody knows and I can't tell you.” Everyone just wants certainty. And it is the one thing that you cannot give people. So I always tell people that every step of this is an opportunity to practice skills that will serve you well later.
Like learning to live with uncertainty and learning to make decisions based on the best available data and then accepting them and moving forward confidently is all stuff that serves you incredibly well at every other stage.
Seth Fishman: That's why you need an agent. You need an agent because you need someone to be able to help you navigate that.
Sarah Enni: The process of selling a book looks a lot different from the side of the editor…
Kate Sullivan: It is as much my job to fall in love and bring new voices to the market as it is for me to acquire stuff that will help a publisher stay afloat and continue to be able to buy new voices.
Sarah Enni: We’re gonna get into next time on Track Changes.
DEFINITIONS:
Genre: Kelly Jensen of BookRiot says the term genre “refers to a type of art that shares similar features. Often, there are standard and common conventions and restraints, as well as common tropes and set-ups. Science fiction is a genre. Romance is a genre. Fantasy and mystery are also genres.”
Category: Jensen says category is “who the book is intended for. It’s part of the marketing of a book, as well as a way for those who work with books to quickly ascertain the reader for whom the book would be most appropriate.” Within the category of Young Adult there are genres like contemporary, science fiction, mystery, etc.
MORE INFORMATION:
“How Long Does it Take to Sell a Book?” by Nathan Bransford
“On Being on Submission” by Stacey Lee on Pub(lishing) Crawl
A description of the auction process on the Steve Laube Literary Agency blog
“Under the Gavel of a Book Auction” on NPR’s Pop Culture Happy Hour blog
Sarah Enni: You can follow Seth Fishman @sethasfishman on Twitter, and Holly Root @HRoot, and find Jennifer de Leon at jenniferdeleonauthor.com.
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