First Draft Episode #270: Tiffany Jackson
September 15, 2020
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Tiffany D. Jackson, author of Allegedly, Monday’s Not Coming, and Let Me Hear A Rhyme, talks about her new book, Grown.
Welcome to First Draft with me, Sarah Enni. This week I'm talking to Tiffany D. Jackson author of Allegedly, Monday's Not Coming, and Let Me Hear a Rhyme, about her new book, Grown. I loved what Tiffany had to say about how she manages chronic migraines to keep writing, using plot twists and mysteries to make her stories stick with readers, and on why she's grateful for a softer launch for this very personal book.
Everything Tiffany and I talk about on today's episode can be found in the show notes. First Draft participates in affiliate programs specifically with bookshop.org. So that means that when you shop through the links on FirstDraftPod.com, it helps to support the show and independent bookstores at no additional cost to you. If you'd like to donate directly to First Draft either on a one-time or monthly basis, you can do that at paypal.me/FirstDraftPod.
Track Changes, the First Draft mini-series that gets into how your book goes from a laptop to a bookshelf, is now complete. You can hear the entire series, nine episodes plus four bonus episodes, @FirstDraftPod.com/TrackChanges. And the publishing info party won't stop for subscribers to the Track Changes newsletter where every Thursday I share more of the information that I gathered in researching for this project, as well as industry updates and more original reporting. You can sign up for a 30-day free trial of the newsletter and learn more about both Track Changes projects @FirstDraftPod.com/TrackChanges.
Okay, now please sit back, relax, and enjoy my conversation with Tiffany Jackson.
Sarah Enni: All right, so hi Tiffany. How are you?
Tiffany Jackson: I'm good. How are you?
Sarah Enni: I'm good. I'm so excited to catch up with you and get to talk about your new book. I can't believe this is your fourth book already. Can you believe it?
Tiffany Jackson: It doesn't feel like a fourth book to me. For some reason it still feels like, I don't know, I always joke and say like, "I'm still like a super repeating senior." I still haven't graduated past that point of where I feel like I'm a real author yet. I haven't hit that yet.
Sarah Enni: I know. Do you think that ever happens?
Tiffany Jackson: You know, I feel like I've talked to some authors who've been around the block and what kind of gave me solace, yet terrified me, is they all agree that it never truly gets easier. They are well into their fifties and sixties, published dozens of books, and still are trying to figure things out. And on one hand I'm like, "Oh, so that means I'm not alone." On the other hand, I'm like, "No, wait! I want to know the answer. What is the secret sauce that helps me overcome all this madness?"
So, I guess that that is an answer in itself that, you know, does it get easier? I'm sure it does in some ways. And in some ways you stop caring as much about opinions of others or criticism and stuff like that. But at the same time, it's like, man, you want to know this stuff.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. And this is a little off topic, but I'm interested in what you think about this cause you've had many other careers and you've also done other creative things. I was thinking the other day, we've all had too much time to think with being quarantined in our homes and alone with our work a lot of the time. But I was thinking about, that writing is one of the things that forces me to go to the furthest [pauses] - I'm obviously still thinking through this - it's like max brain usage for me. Writing an entire book is really me maxing my brain out, like taking the tank all the way to zero.
Tiffany Jackson: Yes!
Sarah Enni: Which is to your point like one of those things where, when people say it's always that hard, I'm like, "Well, that is why we do it." Right? There's something in us that's hardwired to want to use the full power of our brain. But also that is extremely hard to do.
Tiffany Jackson: Yes. I was just actually talking to someone, and I can't remember who, about the idea of writing. Particularly for me, I suffer from chronic migraines. And so using my max brain power to write these books, in between dodging and diving away from bouts of pain, at the very minimum 14 days out of the month, is truly exhausting. So when I do have times when I'm not in pain and I don't have something to write, I cherish that time. Like I literally sit and I don't do anything. And that is so incredibly important.
Sarah Enni: This is a big question. You don't have to get into it if you don't want to, but how do you manage migraines? How does that manifest for you and how are you balancing that?
Tiffany Jackson: It's definitely a lot of medication. I take a monthly injection shot to sort of curb it. There's also just monitoring my stress levels. And I get massage therapy cause it comes from basically my neck and neck spasms. And before COVID hit, I was generally doing regular therapies, like physical therapy and chiropractors and stuff like that. And when COVID hit, all of that shut down.
And it became just me managing things on my own and trying to find creative ways of doing that. Which, like I said, it is a minimum of 14 days out of the month my head is hurting. But I think I'm so accustomed to it now that I just sort of get through the pain, in a way. And definitely it's about like almost writing around your headaches.
I'm sure there's a lot of people who... I know I'm not the only author who suffers from chronic pain. And God bless them, quite frankly, because there's so many different types of chronic pain and so many different types of levels. And just seeing the way that people actually work through them and put out entire books and tour and everything like that, that is something.
Sarah Enni: That's actually a really great transition. Cause I want to kind of talk about, the last time you and I were able to chat, and listeners should know that we have sat down and talked before. So if they want to hear about where you grew up, and how you came to writing, and your early work, they can listen to that. They can and should, and I'll put a link in the show notes for that.
But we talked when you were supporting Monday's Not Coming, your second book. And since then, Monday's Not Coming came out and you released, Let Me Hear a Rhyme. And now you have your newest book, Grown, coming out. But you were so wonderfully honest and vulnerable in our first conversation about having a hard time around when Monday's Not Coming, was coming out. And having conflicted feelings about a lot of things having to do with that project.
I want to kind of catch up with what you've been doing since then, but also looking back now on that time, how do you feel about it and have you resolved some of those feelings? How did that go down?
Tiffany Jackson: That's an excellent question, actually. To be honest, so many things happened after Monday's Not Coming came out. It felt like the book kind of exploded. It was like a soft explosion that I wasn't aware was actually happening or would ever happen. Because if you haven't heard in this podcast before, second books are incredibly hard to write. And when I did write Monday, I definitely was in a funk cause I didn't feel like the book was very good.
But that actually ended up being the book that got me so much acclaim and awards. And I wasn't expecting that at all. And I think another thing that really pulled me out of whatever sort of feelings of funk that I felt during that time, was just getting back to my life. I think that was the other thing that I was missing is that I sort of entrenched myself into this new industry. Cause at the time it was still relatively new for me. It's still new to me, quite frankly.
I spent 15 years in television and I've only been in publishing for the last four. So I'm still very much, as I continue to say, I'm still a new kid, I still learn something new every single book that comes out. But what really kind of pulled me out of it was my resolve to have a life outside of this industry. Making sure I take care of myself, making sure I still connect with my friends and family that have nothing to do with book publishing at all. And truly, honestly, that kind of pulled me back into myself and helped me find myself again. So that I don't feel the sting of criticism, or lack of support, or whatever the case may be.
I don't feel it as much because I'm like, "Oh well," as it happens. And it's kind of like the watched pot never boils sort of thing where, if you stare at a book, and just stare at it and expect it to just bloom right in front of your eyes, it's truly never going to happen. But if you just write a book and put it out in the world and sort of ignore it, you never know what's actually happening without you watching, basically. You absolutely don't know.
And I think that's basically what happened is that I stopped staring at my books on the shelves, and started just paying attention to facing forward. And so like, "Okay, this book is out now, great. Keep going. What's the next book? What's the next project?"
And one of the best pieces of career advice, and I think it was Jason Reynolds who told me this, to continue writing. That your front list sells your back list. And honestly, that was one of the best pieces of advice I ever got. Because once you told me that, it's kind of like, "You're right." Like anytime you pick up a new Tiffany Jackson book, you're gonna be like, "Oh, what else did she write?" And then you find yourself looking at all these different books.
So no matter what, there's a book sale there. There's a new reader there to kind of come into your [work] I guess as you could say. So for me, that helps sort of put perspective in terms of what I should truly be focused on. And like they say, you are literally going to be marketing your book for the rest of your life. Like on your tombstone, it's going to say, "Author, Tiffany Jackson." And it's going to list all your books. Like literally that's gonna be your last words [laughs] is you just marketing your own book, plugging your own book, at your funeral.
So you might as well get used to that and stop worrying about just only plugging this one book. I've seen that happen to a lot of writers where they obsess about the one book that they put out. And I'm like, "Well, do you want to be a person who put out one book or do you want to be an author?"
Sarah Enni: Yeah. That's really real. I got into that a little bit when I was doing the Track Changes series, kind of laying out the publishing process. And towards the end we did a couple episodes about marketing and publicity. And early on someone gave me really good advice about like, "Don't buy the title of your book.com. Don't make your Twitter handle your book title." They're like, "The plan is for you to have a career, right? You are not just publishing this one time."
You mentioned something I think is so interesting, I really just want to follow up on. I'm so intrigued, and I think we don't talk about it enough. I feel like when you're an aspiring writer, or someone who is talking to people who create something that really impacted you and was really successful, the questions a lot of time are like, "Did it feel different when you were writing this book? Did you know that everyone was going to respond to it or that it was gonna take off? Or be the next Game of Thrones?" Right? Or whatever it is.
And often I think it's difficult to say, but we need to sort of normalize it, not to use that word too much. But the disassociation between the feeling of having created a thing and then that thing's success. To your point, with Monday's Not Coming, you didn't feel like, "Oh, finally the world will recognize my brilliancy now." And then when the world did recognize your brilliance, it was like, "Argh!" You don't always like sync up with that feeling.
Tiffany Jackson: It wasn't the book I was expecting for people to acknowledge my quote unquote "brilliance" for, and that's always the case, honestly. It's the book of your heart is usually the one you expect to explode because you're like, "I put my heart and soul into this book. Obviously everyone's gonna want to read it." And et cetera, et cetera. And that is not always the case. And it's nothing that you can do. It's obviously the right time, right place, right season, these books come out.
And that goes back to my whole spiel about always continuing to move forward. Cause someone's eventually going to find that book. So now I always say that my favorite book that I wrote is Let Me Hear a Rhyme and out of the three books that I have out so far that's the least selling book. And maybe because it's not really what people expected from me. It was sort of a pivot in terms of like the thriller aspect that they wanted, but it was very much a story of my childhood. And I completely loved that book.
And the thing is it didn't get a lot of attention at the time. Other projects were out, different things actually happened. And it was rather disappointing. But then, as time goes on, and now I have this new book Grown coming out in a couple of days, people have stumbled across Let Me Hear a Rhyme and have sort of started reading it and saying like, "Oh my God, I love this so much." And this is literally over a year since that book has been out. So that's what I mean by like your readers will find you eventually, you can't just sit in the middle... or like go searching for them.
Sarah Enni: Okay. Well, you sort of just expertly brought us to Grown, but before I ask more specific questions about Grown, do you mind pitching that project for us?
Tiffany Jackson: Sure. So Grown is about a 17 year old aspiring singer named Enchanted Jones who is swooned by a legendary, yet older, R&B superstar of promises of fame that leads her to turn against her family and friends until his body shows up and all fingers point to Enchanted. And now she has to find the voice to bring her, basically her abuse, to light.
Sarah Enni: I have so many things to ask about this, and it is a story that is really personal to you. So I want to start by asking, and obviously you can talk about this as much as you feel comfortable, but you said in the author acknowledgements that this is a subject matter that's very personal to you. And you talked about having an experience of your own with dating someone who was older and kind of coming to terms with that a little bit later in life.
Tiffany Jackson: Yeah. So this book was sort of loosely inspired, not by the R. Kelly case itself, because of course all my other books are loosely inspired by some real case that actually happened. But it was more inspired by the actual reaction to the R. Kelly case. And the idea that there were a lot of victim blaming by adults, and children, who were saying, "Oh girls, they knew what they're doing." Or, "They were going along with it." And that made me feel a way, mostly because when I was 15 my first boyfriend was 22 and I didn't know what I was doing. I truly didn't. I mean, I think I thought I did. And yes, I was a willing participant in this secret relationship that I was having with him.
But at the same time, when I look back on it, I truly have more questions about him than I do about my actions. How dare a grown man basically try to date a child, if lack of a better word. What does that look like and why aren't adults more or less focused on that issue? Of the issue of men who are chilling outside of high schools trying to pick up girls. Or going where girls are... like girls. I'm not talking about 21, a woman. I'm talking about girls. What does that sound like? And you're so focused on what the girls are doing, but why aren't we looking at the perpetrator himself?
And so, yeah, I really wanted to talk about my personal experience. Looking back and seeing how I was definitely groomed to be in this relationship with this very much grown man, and not being a woman yet myself. And I wanted to highlight it specifically for kids, how these types of relationships happen, even in the best of circumstances. Because I came from a two parent household. We lived in the suburbs. I really truly wanted for nothing, but I still dated this man and this still happened. So it could happen in any circumstance.
And I think it's more or less important for us to shed light on these types of relationships with kids, more than adults. Because quite frankly, adults have this already preconceived notion of what young girls are acting like. And I think it's more important for us to start training kids to look at the full scope of these problems. So I thought it would be ideal to start young, quite frankly. And especially for girls who could potentially be in these circumstances themselves. So I do want to be a beacon of hope in a way, that I had my own experience and I still came out all right, for the most part.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. And I want to get back to that concept of first person and kind of embodying this to explore how this grooming works, basically. But about the origin story of Grown, I wanted to ask about that. I think it was in your acknowledgements, you said a friend texted you something about writing a book like this and that set you off. Or what was that story?
Tiffany Jackson: So I was actually working on a totally different story and Stephanie Jones, who's also an inspiring author, texted me when the R. Kelly documentary aired and said, "You need to write this story." And I was like, "Oh no." And then 10 minutes later I was like, "But if I did, this is what it would look like." And I let that text message sit there for like a solid two weeks. And then I was like, "Dammit!" Cause I couldn't stop thinking about it. And I was like, "Fine."
And so I started to put something together and then I was like, "Let me just check with my editor, see if this is something that even Harper would publish." Cause this is sort of a type of topic that some people truly, honestly, before the "me too" movement, people really shied away from these type of controversies because it puts a lot of people on front street and it makes a lot of people uncomfortable. And it's not even just the perpetrator, it's the machine around them that protects them as well too. And we all are sort of a part of that.
And so I checked with Harper and they were totally onboard and they have been incredibly gracious and supportive of this book, honestly, from the very beginning. And I was worried because this is a rather personal story and I would hate to put my own personal pain out on display and it not be fully supported. So I am incredibly grateful to Harper for having my back here.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. That's incredible. And I don't know if you think of yourself this way, but I do think of you as a writer who bravely tackles these difficult topics. So from the outside I'm like, "Well, yeah!!" Harper's like, "Tiffany's back in the game writing about difficult stuff." But you never know. You just want to know that you're with a team that gets what you're doing.
Tiffany Jackson: I am aware that I definitely hit issues in every book. And I definitely am not a soft ball, or I definitely play hard ball, in all of my books. But this one, I just felt like there was so much necessity around it. And I just worry. I still worry. I mean, even though we are very much in the midst of this, "me too" movement and in the midst of getting people to truly believe victims, and there is a lot of forward movement with that. There is still the potential for people to placate and pretend, you know, allies like, "Oh yeah, we believe you." And, "Oh yeah, we're gonna support you." And, you know, blah, blah, blah. Just kind of play pretend that they support us. But then later on completely forget that this person potentially did something harmful. And I think that it sucks to be in that position, especially as a Black woman. To feel like you can never truly trust anyone's motives, quite frankly.
Sarah Enni: Right. Right. Or commitment.
Tiffany Jackson: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Enni: You said that after having the seed planted, you let it sit for a little bit and then came up with your approach, or what might be the way you'd want to tackle the subject matter. What were you thinking in that process? I'm thinking from the point of view of maybe a writer who's interested in tackling a subject like this, that's personal to them, how you think about translating your feelings about something and wanting to address a really important social issue. But you have to put it in a story and make a narrative and characters. How did you think through that process?
Tiffany Jackson: Well, to be honest, it actually was one of the harder stories I've had to work on. And simply because, I'm such a research junkie. All my other books were heavily researched. There were interviews, there were hours spent in the library just to get one detail down. Going through archives and stuff like that. With this particular book, even though it was loosely inspired upon a case that actually happened, and my own situation, there wasn't much to go by. Which sounds strange.
But when you think of something like this, the story sort of evolved more from a, "he said, she said" type of situation. It is incredibly hard to get those details down. So yes, there was a lot of information, but it wasn't like concrete and it was ever changing.
In fact, throughout most of writing this book, R. Kelly was being rearrested, and transported, and new charges were coming up. Every single time I had finished a chapter, something else would happened. And I would just be like, "Okay." So I really had to go off of my own feelings of how I was feeling in terms of how I felt while I was going through something similar. And the changes I went through in my life. So I definitely stole some pieces of me and applied it to this book and told this story and talked to other victims.
Cause one of the things that we realize, and even from watching the R. Kelly documentary and also just from other cases as well, is that most predators are one trick ponies. They all have the same M.O. of what they do. And so it's almost like they all, and this is gonna sound warped, but it almost sounds like they all went to the same school. The same kind of reverse psychology school, or they all are reading from the same book. So it was actually quite easy to apply the tactics that all these other women, and myself included, have heard and apply it to this character.
So that was the way I started it was basing it on real tactics that actually happened, or actually occurred. So that's really how I charted this book. And for those who are interested in writing personal stories [pauses and sighs], I say take great care. I know some people, it takes them a really long time to write something that's deeply personal to them. And I'm not the type of person who likes to sit in my feelings whatsoever. So I wrote this book incredibly fast. I wasted no time. I just let myself wallow in it for like a couple of weeks. And I was like, "Okay, that's it."
And then everything else after that was editing. So you can either take my method, which is like, "Don't sit in your feelings too long. Don't pitch a tent in your feelings. Don't start building a house there." Literally just hike through that dark forest and get the hell out of there. And that is my personal preference because I don't like to feel feelings at all.
[Both laugh].
Tiffany Jackson: But my therapist actually coined a really good phrase for this, is that, most of my other novels are like general research, but this book was soul research. And I was like, "Wow, you're worth all the money!"
Sarah Enni: That is real.
Tiffany Jackson: Yeah. I definitely feel like the time will also just have to be right as well too. Like if something just recently happened to you, you may not be in the position to actually have the full scope. I mean, I was 15 and I'm now 38 and I'm still sort of looking at things and being like, "Oh, wow. Well, I guess that did happen." And still unpacking a lot, decades later. So you never know, quite frankly. So I think it's all about knowing your own self and knowing how to take care.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, and your therapist got a shout-out in the acknowledgements, which I love always. As you say, this is a very timely book. You were writing it as the R. Kelly case is ongoing and has been in the news, and so a lot of people are processing out loud, or in real time. Were you writing while you were processing your own experience or had you already done a lot of work about processing your own experience? How did the timeline workout with your personal work versus...
Tiffany Jackson: The actual book work?
Sarah Enni: Yeah.
Tiffany Jackson: I think by that point, by last summer, I definitely had processed a lot on my own and through professionals and sort of unpacked a lot too. Because, quite frankly, I didn't realize what I did or what happened was truly wrong until I was much older. Until someone else pointed out the fact that like, "Your boyfriend was 22 and you were how old?" And the eyebrow raise. And it's so uncomfortable cause then you get in conversations with friends or people, and they're like, "Oh, who was your first love?" Like, "Talk about your first boyfriend in high school?" Or, your high school boo-thing. And I can never contribute to that conversation cause mine is so controversial and I would avoid it at all costs.
So it's highly embarrassing even though it's truly not my fault, it's still uncomfortable. So it took years to get to that point where I can talk about it and be like, "Yeah, it happened." And be settled in my feelings about it. What I think was hard for me, in terms of writing this book, is actually having to acknowledge it out loud to people. To actually talk about it in the universe and not just with a small core set of friends and my therapist. It wasn't until the cover came out that, actually I hadn't told my parents, they still hadn't known. And I only told them because the cover was revealing and I was like, "Well, you know, it's too late now to turn back."
Sarah Enni: This is happening.
Tiffany Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. "This is happening. So let me just tell them now." And they were actually incredibly supportive and understanding of everything I was going through. And I give my parents a lot of props because I was definitely an interesting child to have. And so I give them many props for dealing with all my shenanigans. But no, seriously, I still process things. I had a talk with Laurie Halse Anderson and I caught myself tripping up over a word, or tripping up over something I was saying about myself. And I was like, "Oh, wow. I didn't mean that." Or taking onus or taking blame for something that happened between me and my ex.
So it's uncomfortable still to talk about. It's one thing, I hate to say appreciate, about this quarantining. But I definitely appreciate the fact that I'm softly launching into the universe with this story. That I'm not being shoved in front of crowds of people and having to talk and filter questions and stuff like that. Like all of this is digital, so I'm not feeding off of other people's energies. There's a barrier between every interviewer that kind of helps protect me until I'm fully ready to walk out on stage and share this story. Even though there's still a lot eyes, digital eyes, it still isn't the same as being in an auditorium facing all these children and explaining yourself.
Sarah Enni: Right. That's so huge. And it's such an interesting point. All the psychology at play with what we're going through right now. Everything's just different, right? I find myself saying the same thing. I'm like, "I'm not gonna say silver lining, that's not what this is here." But there is an acknowledgement of the differences and how that is playing into all of our lives. And especially professionally in this context. You're so right. The fact that you can do all of this from home and then turn off the zoom and go lay on your couch. That's wonderful.
Tiffany Jackson: Yes. Yes. You know, I can cuddle with my puppy. I can be home in my safe space, even though my apartment is driving me crazy. I still feel safe here. I'm not leaving an event and going to a cold hotel room where I have no friends or family nearby. So there's definitely a different dynamic walking into this tour season, as I've called it now, than there has been in the past.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. And, by the way, I really appreciate you answering these very personal questions. I really appreciate you getting into that and being so honest. So I want to ask about Enchanted, the main character of Grown, and approaching telling her story. As you say, when we're talking about this topic, we're talking about grooming and how subtle and gradual and explicit and manipulative the behaviors are of these, usually men, who are manipulating young girls.
And when you, as the author, are there in first person with Enchanted, it's so powerful. So it's powerful to write in first person in that context. How did you think about that and how were you thinking about the narrative structure and pacing? I mean, I'm interested in all of that.
Tiffany Jackson: Originally, I wanted this to be a very succinct, short, sweet novel. So I was like, "I'm gonna write it in verse." And then a week into it, I was like, "Oh, I am no Elizabeth Acevedo or Jason Reynolds. Let me sit my ass down." And then I started as vignettes. And when you write vignettes, every vignette is like its own chapter. And there was like 200 chapters at one point. And I was like, "Oh, this is too much." And so I just started to like compact and compile everything.
And I think there's about maybe 90 chapters in this. And they're all pretty short, maybe the longest is six or seven pages. But my goal was to make this a short story. To make this sort of like small stabs. Every single chapter being like a small prick at you. And I did that on purpose. I want you to remember all the elements of the story. So when something big is revealed, you remember it, because you should remember all the other little pricks that happened along the way. So I guess that was somewhat purposeful. But yeah, the structure of the story really came from wanting to write a book of verse and completely failing.
Sarah Enni: That is fascinating. That's so interesting that you say that because I can, of course, see that now. It's very propulsive because the chapters are quick and they build on each other like little blocks. It does have a vignette-y feel to it. And I wouldn't necessarily have found that word unless I heard about this. So that's so interesting. And I did I read about, you had an interview where you talked about plot twists. You are kind of known for plot twists and also you write kind of thriller or borderline mystery. And there is an element to that in this. There's kind of a murder mystery element to it.
But in your interview you said, "When writing books with such important topics, you want that book to really stay with people. Techniques like plot twists, or really shocking endings, help accomplish that." So that kind of sounds like what you're saying, like, "How can this really stick with someone?"
Tiffany Jackson: Yeah. I remember being younger and reading books that, if they weren't full of beautiful prose that literally took my breath away, they were just like the teacher in Charlie Brown trying to talk to me. And I didn't hear anything much from it. Like nothing stuck. It just went in one ear out the other. And I hate to say it, but a lot of people always ask me like, "Who's your favorite character in literature? What's your favorite story?" And I'm like, "Man, I cannot remember."
Because I read at a pace where it's like, "Okay, I'm done with this story. Move on." Like, there's not much that has stayed unless maybe there is, and this is somewhat cheating, unless there was a movie to accompany that book. And especially since I have a film background, of course I'm gonna remember more from the movie because I've probably deconstructed that movie and criticized it to the "nth" degree. So, yeah, I'll remember that.
But I just always have felt that the way a book is structured, and the way the story is particularly structured, the characters are structured, the way that you ingest that story, is exactly how it stays in your bloodstream. Right? It's exactly how it continues to be at the forefront of your mind, even after you've read it. Because it was more of an experience than just a casual viewing. You were actually an actor within a play versus you just watching something on a screen.
And I think that's what makes books so exciting, that visceral feeling you have. You were like, "Yo, I was running within Enchanted at some point in the middle of this book." Or if I wasn't running with Enchanted I was standing in the corner, yelling and screaming at her to get out. Or that he's crazy and stuff like that. Like you were a person in this book. And I think that's so important. I think that's important for, particularly our young readers, to have that experience to feel like these books.
And like I always say, especially if there are lessons within the book, then you don't want to just spoon feed lessons. You want kids to come to their own conclusions and have their own opinions by presenting all the facts. Somewhat like the proverbial platter that is handed to them throughout the entire text so they can draw their own conclusions at the end and hopefully you do it right.
And because of this pandemic, I haven't gotten a lot of kid reactions yet to this book, cause the book hasn't come out yet. And why kids don't have access to schools where they have the book or libraries. So it's a very different feel than it has in previous times where I've had kids read the ARC's of books and then they'll tell me different things or tell me their reviews. So I'm actually looking forward to that. I do miss school visits a lot. I miss interacting with kids. And I live in an area with several schools and all the schools are empty and it's kinda sad.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. It's so strange. I want to ask about the truly staggering number of intersecting topics that are really tackled throughout this story. You know, it's Enchanted's story and it is loosely based on kind of predatory older male behavior towards girls. It's also very much about the fact that Enchanted, as a young Black woman, t's also very much about the fact that she is new at a mostly white school and about her being a young, ambitious woman.
I mean, there's so much going on in the story. I guess I don't necessarily even have a specific question about it. I just am interested in, did you know you wanted to tackle all of that? Did you ever get tempted to really narrow it down to one intersection? How did you feel about presenting so much to the reader at the same time?
Tiffany Jackson: Oh, so that's an excellent question. A lot of times I feel like if you have a person's attention, you just need to give them everything. And I also believe that context is also incredibly important. I think that's one of the things that's missing from stories that deal with social issues is that you're only focusing on one issue. I call it the social justice umbrella. And there's several prongs in the social justice umbrella that actually covers our entire community. And a lot of times we are only focused on that one prong rather than all the other prongs that are actually holding everything else together. I guess if that makes any sense?
Sarah Enni: It does, yeah.
Tiffany Jackson: So I think, for me, I like to tell the full scope. Give it all, basically. So you have an understanding of particularly where a Black woman is coming from. Not only is she not being believed, but she's also being harassed. She's also being called names. She's also being ostracized from her community. She's ostracized from the white community as well too. There are so many things attacking a Black woman at the same time that it seems unjust to only focus on one of those areas.
And so I like to throw everything in the kitchen sink into a book, as delicately as I can to sort of give a true perspective. To truly contextualize a Black woman's experience, particularly in this type of environment, which I don't feel we have enough of. We don't get that story all the time. We only get to hear pieces of it. And if I have your ear for the 300 and something pages of my book, I'm gonna tell you everything. And that way there should be no questions left at the end.
So I did want to point out that Grown is actually the first book that I wrote that actually has a content warning in the beginning. And that was actually incredibly important because this book does have a lot of triggers in it. There's a lot of hard topics, a lot of brutal scenes that may dust up memories or feelings for people. It definitely did for me. So what I am also incredibly grateful for is that the content warning is literally is on its own page in the very beginning of the book. So you literally can't miss it unless you just went straight to the first chapter.
And then in the back there's also resources. There's contact numbers, abuse hotlines. And also just my general story, in terms of in the author's note, just sort of saying where this story came from. So people don't think that I'm just making this up and I have no idea what I'm talking about. I think that's important. That's valid. I guess it dips into the idea of own voices and knowing the person that is telling the story is telling something that actually may be similar to something you've experienced, I think there's some comradery there.
And so I wanted to lay the foundation. To tell the story as delicately as possible. Giving the content warning and the resources and putting myself out there as well too, early on. So that there's no questions and no one's gonna come and ask different things later on.
So I was thinking about the author who wrote My Dark Vanessa and how she had to come out and say that she did have her own experience. And I thought that was pretty hard for her in general. I mean, I know there's a lot of different feelings about that book, but to be forced to kind of come out and say something that's incredibly personal to you, as an author, that's hard. But it's also hard for readers as well, right?
Because you don't want anyone commandeering and making money off of your pain. So I wanted to say up front like, "Hey, this is my experience. Here are all the resources. I'm with you." So I just hope I'm a shout in the dark.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, absolutely. And I absolutely noticed that, the trigger words at the beginning. Once you finished writing the book, then you do move on to this like, "How do I want to present it?" And you think about all these things. Were you like, "Here's the deal. I want this trigger warning page." Or how did that come about?
Tiffany Jackson: I actually didn't know. I knew I wanted resources. I knew I was gonna do an author letter. I knew what the structure I wanted in the back of the book, but I didn't know how I was going to present like, "Hey, proceed with caution before you open this book." And someone I believe from the sales team at Harper suggested a content warning page, or just putting a content warning.
And there's several ways you could have done it. It could have been on the copyright page, it could have been in the flap jacket, but I wanted it to be on its own. Like, you cannot miss these couple words on a blank piece of paper. It's almost like seeing like an ink dot and you're curious what that is. So I'm grateful that we were able to just have it get its own page and put a spotlight on that so that there is no question, basically, what's happening in this book.
Sarah Enni: Well, I wanted to just wrap up with asking about how the experience has been of wrapping up Grown and you mentioned in the acknowledgements some back-and-forth that had to be done with your publisher because everything changed and they were all working from home and I don't know, final proof copies. I'm not sure what the timing was for you, but what was it like and how are you gearing up to release the book this fall?
Tiffany Jackson: Well, you know, there's this little pandemic happening and it has definitely changed everyone's workflow. Even getting the final first-pass pages, they had to send that digitally. I luckily have an iPad Pro with the pencil so I was marking all my changes on my iPad. I was like, "Wow, we're in the future." I was signing contracts digitally. Everything was a zoom meeting and just going over marketing plans that we originally had in March completely changed within like four weeks of that. So it was definitely a lot of changes. And so I definitely, looking at the Harper team quite frankly I'm like, "Yeah, you had to jump through some hoops just to make this work."
And so it's been a phenomenal experience and everyone gets to do this from home. I'm very appreciative of it. I've gotten a lot of support from the book community as well. And that means a lot, quite frankly. Especially when you're writing something that's so personal and putting out something that's so personal, and to be surrounded by so much loss and so much trauma in the midst of putting out a book that is highly traumatic from a highly traumatic experience. There was a lot.
The biggest thing that I can say that has changed for me is how I dealt with everything, quite frankly. So before, especially the last book, Let Me Hear a Rhyme. I was like everywhere. I was trying to get interviews. I was going to bookstores, I was signing, I was doing everything. Here, I can do nothing. I literally just had to have faith that everything was gonna work out. And that has been my biggest lesson in all of this, is just let go and “let god” type of thing.
And so that has been my saving grace to my sanity. It's like, "I don't know what's happening. I have no control of anything that's happening." I could just only sit here and just move forward and keep swimming. And so I think that has been the biggest change between all my other books where I'm hustling and bustling, to this one, where I literally am sitting on the couch with cookie dough and watching Netflix and doing everything from home with a puppy who is like having a toddler.
And so at this point, I feel like I've had to just go out on faith, which is really hard for a Type A who wants to control everything, wants to know everything type of person. Here, I've just had to accept and just be like, "Okay, this is what we're gonna do." Or, "This is what's gonna happen." Like, "There's nothing I can do. This is what's just gonna happen." So, yeah, I guess that's the biggest thing. And so I'm hoping in the future I can take this affirmation with me so I'm not overly stressing about things that I simply cannot control.
And you yourself, as an author, you know this. There's only so much we can do. And at some point we just have to let our babies go and frolic in the wild and hopefully they'll be straight [unintelligible]. But yeah, I guess that's the biggest thing that has changed. And I hope for all the aspiring authors or, hell, all my author peeps out here, this has been one hell of a year. But at the end of the day, we still have a product that we put out that is still out in the world, and will be there forever. And so I think that that's an amazing feat in itself.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. I think that's wonderful. And I really am struck by your using the word affirmation. I think that's really well said. Of all the soul searching that's happening in this really, really, truly wild year, if you can find self-affirmation anywhere in there, hold onto that. And I think that will serve us with whatever the world looks like going forward.
Tiffany Jackson: Yeah. We have to be able to sit back and we have to be our own biggest cheerleader. That's basically what it comes down to. We have to self-affirm our own worth, our own abilities, and stuff like that. Because we're not gonna be able to get it from anywhere else. So it has to come from within. And I think that that is a life challenge that everyone has had to be hit with, quite frankly. There's no adoring fans roaring to hear you. Literally, your adoring fan is kind of inside you. And that's the only fan that you should probably be worried about.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, listen, if NBA players don't even get fans these days then we're far back in the line!
[Both laugh].
Tiffany Jackson: Oh my gosh, yes, exactly. They still gotta play.
Sarah Enni: Well, you know I like to wrap up with advice, but frankly, that was the best advice right there. So I think that we can call it good on that. That is a wonderful note to end on, a really hopeful one.
Tiffany, this was so fun to be able to chat with you. I'm so grateful for all your time today. Thank you so much.
Tiffany Jackson: Thank you so much.
Thank you so much to Tiffany. Follow her on Twitter and Instagram @WriteinBK. And follow me on both @SarahEnni (Twitter and Instagram), and the show @FirstDraftPod (Twitter and Instagram). A quick and easy way that you can support First Draft is to subscribe to the podcast wherever you're listening and leave a rating or review on Apple Podcasts. First Draft was recently named one of Apple Podcasts, top 25 podcasts for book lovers. And I want to thank everybody who left ratings and reviews to draw attention to the show and make that possible. Thank you so so much.
Finally, if you have any writing or creativity questions that me and a future guest can answer in an upcoming mailbag episode, please call and leave that question at First Draft's voicemail. That's at (818) 533-1998, or you can record yourself asking the question and email that to me [at] mailbag [at] firstdraftpod [dot] com.
Hayley Hershman produces First Draft and today's episode was produced and sound designed by Callie Wright. The theme music is by Dan Bailey and the logo was designed by Collin Keith. Thanks also to transcriptionist-at-large Julie Anderson.
And, as ever, thanks to you soul researchers for listening.
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Have a question about writing or creativity for Sarah Enni or her guests to answer? To leave a voicemail, call (818) 533-1998 or send an email to mailbag @ firstdraftpod dot com!
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